9. Behind The Remarkable Turnaround of Edgars, Led By CEO Norman Drieselmann | Retailability Group

In this episode of CANDID, we are joined by Norman Drieselmann, CEO of Retailability, who discusses the process of turning around businesses like Edgars after their acquisition.

Norman shares valuable insights about the steps Retailability took, the lessons they learned along the way, and how they managed to re-establish a positive image for Edgars.

He also discusses the importance of directly communicating with customers and maintaining data integrity in today's retail landscape.

Tune in to learn more about Retailability's journey and get practical advice on successfully managing a turnaround.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction

01:01 Discussing the Acquisition of Edgars

01:21 Lessons from the Legit Acquisition

01:54 Challenges and Learnings from the Edgars Transaction

04:18 Revamping the Edgars Stores

04:52 The Importance of Rebranding in Retail

05:49 The Big Five Initiatives for Business Shift

12:02 The Difference Between Strategy and Plan

16:59 The Role of Supply Chain in Retailability's Strategy

21:21 The Importance of Robust and Simple Systems

22:06 Building a Scalable Business Infrastructure

22:53 Challenges in Finance and Payroll Management

23:40 Choosing the Right IT Platforms

24:17 The Art of Cost-Effective Operations

24:32 The Toyota Analogy: Adapting to Different Business Needs

25:09 The People Side of Business: Gaining Buy-In from the Team

26:17 Overcoming Challenges in Business Rescue

27:12 Building Credibility and Trust with Staff

29:13 Improving Customer Experience: The Customer First Program

33:45 The Power of Direct Communication with Customers

36:27 The Importance of Flat Organizational Structures

39:03 Leveraging Customer Loyalty Programs

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome to another episode of Candid. Today I'm joined by the CEO of Retailability, Norman Drieselmann. If you haven't heard of Retailability, you've probably heard of Edgar's, you've probably heard of Keedo, as well as Legit. And these are the brands or the businesses that Retailability owns. And not to mention Boardman's, which was part of the 2020 Edgars acquisition deal from Edcon. The takeaways that you can expect from this episode are practical in nature. Norman is very, very straightforward in how he articulates the turnaround when it came to Edgars, together with the learnings from Acquiring Legit, as well as then just what is happening behind the scenes at the Retailability Group. Norman a massive thank you for, for joining me in the, in the Candid episode. And, you know, when I, when I first reached out to you that I'm, I'm always interested to hear what is happening in the South African landscape through a business lens. And I think what came out in the news that everyone is very aware about is what what you did with Edgars in 2020 when Retailability actually acquired Edgars. well, you know, a, a, portion of it, but most of it. And to date, I've heard some wonderful things in terms of how your team and yourself have really turned the business around. And I think just to give the li listeners a, um, a bit of context here, Retailability acquired Legit in 2017 and uh, in one of your interviews, I think it was the Moneyweb interview. You mentioned that you had a lot of learnings from the legit acquisition that you implemented and, and really utilized within the Edgars one. So for you, what were those lessons that you really wanted to, to, to take home and, and execute from? Yeah, thanks. I mean, I, I, I think, um, the the the, biggest difference, I mean, let, let me start there. The biggest difference between the legit transaction and the Edgars transaction was that the Edgars transaction came out of business risk, . You. Um, and, and what, what we didn't fully understand or appreciate was, uh, the, the, the extent to which that affected customer's perception of the business. Uh, you know, we anecdotally, we still have some customers saying to us, oh, is Edgar still open? Um, I I didn't know. You know, and it, and it's a bit rude to ask them, you know, what rock they've been hiding under, um, or what shopping malls they choose not to go to. But, but, but, but the, but that's the reality is that when you, when you buy a business out of business rescue, it has had extended period of bad press and it's got your business rescue because. On a, generally on a mismanagement basis. You know, so the management team, as good as they may have been or, or, however they were, we're dealing with other issues other than the consumer in the period leading up to business rescue. You know, there were other challenges that they had to face. So I think for us, the biggest learning outta the Edgars transaction was, uh. Possibly discounting the size of the effort required to reestablish a positive image behind the Edgars brand. That was probably the, the, the biggest challenge that we had to overcome. Um, from a, from a, a learnings perspective, uh, gee, whiskers, uh, however hard You think it is, it's like building a, house. You know, it, it never goes, it never goes according to plan and it's never delivered on time. Um, so however, whatever you think your budget is, double it. You know, whatever you effort level you think it is, double it, you know? Um, it's not for the faint, but, but what a ride. so. If we were to look then also at what you've done with I mean, I've walked as an example, you know, I've actually into the Edgar Fourways Mall and I've noticed that on the one side it's, it's far more visible. So for example, from just me walking past now I can see what is happening or what is inside at, at, you know, at that level within Edgar's, and in my mind, what you've created within there and what your team has created. are like micro experiences within now the Edgars environment. Talk to me a bit about how you've managed to revamp the Edgars side of things. And I think maybe just to give you, um, another context here, we see a lot of retailers, you know, creating. I quote their next gen stores. And in actual fact, what they've just done is just painted it a new color, you know, changed the font, a little bit of the signage, but from what it looks like in the Edgar's environment now, it looks like you have fundamentally shifted the, actual experience of that store. So maybe just talk a bit about the practicalities yeah, sure. I mean, I, I, I think the, the biggest, the biggest cancer in in retail in particular is, is one of, um, when things get tough, it's time to rebrand. Um, and, and we believe that rebranding will reposition us in the hearts and minds of the consumer and change our fortunes forever. Um, a new logo isn't a silver bullet. Um, and, and in actual fact, we, we spent the, we spent the first, uh, 12 months of the turnaround. We, we didn't spend one random marketing, not one rant. Because I kept saying to the oaks, you're gonna go and tell customers, come in and see the same thing you've always seen. That's not a sales pitch for a turnaround. That's not living the strategy of what we try to do. So all our energy, instead of trying to spread, you know, uh, your power too thinly across all the different facets and functions within a business, we really narrowed our focus. So we said to ourselves, what are the three or four, and we called it the big five. To have a bit of an African flavor. So what are the big five initiatives that are gonna shift us, um, and, and shift the dial dramatically from a sustainability of the business and really aligning it to the reality of the African consumer. Uh, you know, and, and I keep, and I talk to that because we, we are not just in C South Africa. We, we in a, in a number of countries around Southern Africa. So how do we, how do we, how do we do that? And we, we sat back and we said, okay, well firstly, your big box format. Big boxes are notoriously hard to navigate and get around, and there was even consumer feedback that said, you know, we, we can't, we can't see what's, what's in and around the so, so, I don't know too many people who sell stuff without showing it. Uh, you know, you, you, you, you can't do that, right? So, like, sell a car but don't show people, you know, it might've worked a little bit for the DeLorean, but, but it didn't really last long did it? So, so, so, so that's the, that's the one piece. So we wanted to live visibility. And the second thing is, is that we had to realize that in, in our market, you need to have the right value equation. So it's the fundamental, what is the quality price and fashion ability, ratios and mix that you wanted to get right, and I felt that the group had become too reliant on brands and hadn't really focused on fashion for the South African market. So, so we, we shifted our focus from a product perspective. We shifted our pricing strategies. Uh, we lifted the visibility in the stores. I mean, we haven't spent bucket loads of money in, in the inside the environment yet. I mean, we've started to migrate. Um, but you can't do everything, you know, so, so so we picked those, we picked those buckets. we realized that a lot of the stores had very little stock, so we had to get the stock balancing right. From the smallest store to the biggest store in volume. Um, and we worked hard to get the beauty customer back into Edgar's. Um, 'cause that was always such a pillar of, of, of that brand. So pick the five big things. Um, and then, and then, uh, maybe, maybe, this is a little controversial, but, you know, I, I literally behaved like a dictator. You know, this is all I'm gonna talk about for the next 18 months. Don't, don't bring me anything else. Focus on that, do this do that consistently, execute it, make sure that the habit forms, um, the, the one of the learnings out of the legit transaction was that just because you've ticked the box and you've changed something on a piece of paper, doesn't mean it changes on the store and stays changed. Um, so it's, uh, you know, that reinforcement, reinforcement till it becomes a habit. Um, and, and I mean that's ultimately all we've done for, for three years now. Geez, actually been three years. But for me, what's standing out here, uh, like what's standing out here is very much on the, along the lines of . You know, you, you use the, the term, um, you know, dictator, but at the end of the day, what you're saying there in substance is that you walk the walk like it had to be you and it had to be your management team That really created consistency and a disciplined approach to really just focusing on a handful of outcomes that wanted to achieve because as you probably experienced, as I, anyone listening has experienced. A lot of the times, there's about, um, 12 to 20 different what someone would term strategic objectives, that that, that typically come from the, the typical consultant, in terms of selling their time. And, and, and that actually can, causes a tremendous amount of confusion, um, and distraction from, you know, from what I've observed both in kind of the, the corporate environment when I do my articles as well as now in other sMBs more to that's right. I mean, you, you, I mean you, how many company companies genuinely have resources to fully execute 20 strategies? But I mean, I set in an Edcon strategy where there was one and a half pages of strategic initiatives, each of which will take more than a year to be able to implement. Very few organizations have that kind of capability, skillset within the leadership team, mental margin in their daily jobs to be able to actually focus on it as well as cash to be able to execute these things. You just, you just can't, you just can't do it. So what happens is you end up half pregnant, partially executed on, you know, 20 different initiatives, and then you get no value, but you've spent all your money. Um, and, and I think, uh, what's, what's often not appreciated is, uh, sometimes so, so I'll tell you, it's, it's like we are all part of the team together. Every function, whether it be hr, marketing, financial services, uh, you, know, club management, merchandise buying, planning, finance it. So everybody's gotta have a strategic initiative, but. What, you know, 'cause sometimes in a, in, in, a, in a team environment, this is my year to play a supporting role. next year is my year to try and, you know, to, to potentially have my opportunity for my next step change within my business. So we're So desperate to have everybody feel like they're part of this big strategic initiative where the reality of business is its evolution. It's not a metamorphosis. So how do you evolve in a structured and controlled manner that you don't blow the bank balance, you fully execute and you keep progress over a five year period. It's always this hail Mary, you've gotta turn this thing in a year. that's delusional, man. Uh, yeah. It just, it just doesn't happen. So what are the big things that has the biggest impact? And that's where we put our energy. Um, so marketing, hr, those guys didn't have strategic initiatives in the first 18 months, you know. Um, the, you know, the biggest drive for HR team was, we called it internal marketing. You know, just keeping the dipstick of positive energy going, you know, and how's it doing? Okay, cool, cool, cool. That's it. That's a supporting role, you know, and it was a critical role. Um, every now and again we forget to say well done. You know, when you're in such a, like a task orientated mode. if we actually jump a bit to the theory side quickly, because I think this is one that, that people really use interchangeably in terms of these words, is. Strategy and a plan. And a lot of people now have combined, unfortunately combined the two and said strategic plan, which for me I think is just ludicrous. And for you though, before, I mean I've got my, you know, definition of a strategy versus a plan, but for you, what is that key distinction between a business, having a strategy and then a business having a plan or multiple plans? So, so for me. It's, I mean, and, and, um, there's a book called Playing to Win, and I'm a big fan of it. Um, so if anybody wants to read it, they must, they must read it, Um, but it is, it's unbelievably, uh, you know, clear for me when you, when you get through that But strategy for me is what is my place in the world? So I have to have relevance. So that is my point of relevance. That is my place in the world, and this is how I differentiate relative to my peer set. So that carves out my place. That's a strategy. You should be able to get that down on a page. You know, if you can actually have that kind of clarity of, of, of where you, where you wanna play, that, that's, that's my one pager. Then I'm gonna sit and say, okay, well how far off is my current business operations model and, and, way of doing business from allowing me to achieve that, that place in the market? The biggest gaps are the areas you've gotta go and hit. So, so in the Edgars environment, we really wanted to be a broad based c cric, fashion and beauty retailer. Two pillars, fashion and beauty. That's what we're building our business behind. Everything else is an enabler. Beyond that, and I wanted to be a value retailer. I couldn't be a niche retailer. Why? You've been to four ways that stores 10,000 squares. How do you run a niche boutique, 10,000 square meter store profitably? You can't, so, so I had to broaden the market appeal. Okay? So I want to be a broad based fashion, beauty value business in this African context, while providing a nice balance between private label fashion and brands, international brands. That, that that's high level really what I wanna be and where I wanna play. And there's a little bit of nuances inside that, that's, that's, that's, quite cool to, to keep private. Um, and and, then, and then we say, okay, well let's look at what we're doing in egs. Okay, well, three quarters of the store is full of brands. Okay. So where's the value in the private label business? That'll broaden the appeal. Um, then I look at the fashionability and I say, geez, like guys that the, the average mom and dad won't wear any of that stuff. So you buying the wrong product, you're charging too much for it.'cause they've gotta spend money on kids 'cause they just, uh, you know that you lose your hair and you, they absorb your cash. Um, but they're So rewarding. And, and then, and then you say to yourself, okay, on that basis, guys, we, we are missing the value equation. So we put 12% deflation into our business year. One to get that right. Then we said, okay, and we are missing the Fashionability core. Now fashion lifecycle is nine to 12 months for you to be able to start to bring the change of product based on your supply chain. So then we're saying, okay, cool, so we've gotta start getting that right. So we'll only really see the fruits of our hard work in nine to 12 months time from a product perspective. So we built that plan and we understood the timeline behind that, and I think that's the difference. Strategy boom. Position plan is What are the things you're gonna go and change? What are the metrics that you're gonna use to try and understand whether you're shifting it? I can quote my deflation, I can quote the number of options I've shifted in my business. Uh, I know that 40% of the range goes down to bottom stores no more. If you, if you, go to Big Edgar store, like four ways, you'll see a hundred percent of the range. If you then go and pop to Key West, uh, just on the west round around the corner from there, you're gonna only see 40 to 45% of the range. Because of the size. So we went and tiered it so we can get some profitable profitability out of our stock chain. So, so each of those different buckets we went in and built and then we understood the timelines behind it.'cause otherwise, every quarter I sit in a board meeting and they're looking at me saying, where's the turnaround? Um, I'd have a meeting with the landlord and he would say, we are a bit concerned about your turnaround. And it's like, it's been three months. you know, You your expectations on me are way too high. You know, you must chat to my wife. so so it, it's, you know, she, she'll help, you know, tell you the truth, man. I'm a disappointment. So, So, it, it's, these little, it's, it's that clarity on timeline upfront. Understanding that it's whatever plan you put in is gonna be wrong in the day you write it, but at least it sets expectations. Um, you know, miracles happen in Walt Disney. hey. Hard graft happens in real world. I think what, what you've shared now in terms of that difference between strategy and, and plan, if, if I can take a stab then at from my research on Retailability and what you've been doing, I. And, you know, the multiple brands that you're running, um, for me, what, what is coming across as a constant is the fact that you have really invested time, money, and expertise within the supply side of the business in such a way where you can truly, um, kind of merge all of the purchasing power and the logistical process of moving product to, um, to stores. And you've done it in such a way where it is super cost effective. And then it's also allowed you to generate quite a lot of insights when it comes to, you know demand planning and so on across these stores. And together then with the fact that now you have a strong supply, um, positioning to then offer true value to these particular, let's call them your internal customers, like Edgar's and, and Legit and, and, and now the rebrand Swagger. If you were to now think then. The next entry that you've done is you've kind of merged those brands together in, in ways that they do compliment, like bringing Keedo into Edgar's, you know, that gives Keedo amount retail space that it wouldn't necessarily have and gives Edgar's then, another diversification together Then with the fact that, because most of. Edgar's in the past was everything to no one in the context of like, them not having their own brands, that they could really kind of control that, um, that focus when it comes to the value for customers. You brought the private labeling into Edgar's now, so, I hope I'm in the right direction. Ma research was aligned. Um, but for me now, if you were to think then at a, at the strategy that, you've positioned retail. Ultimately what this means then is that if there is an opportunity down the line for another, either a brand or slash a retailer, you have that sufficient, positioning now, especially from a supply side. Um, and, and the proprietary. Platforms that you've created to serve it, you can actually take them and, and bring them onto this platform that created, um, to help them with the focus. And then of course, the, the control. Yeah. I mean, I, I, I mean, I think, I think that's spot on. So, uh, before the Legit transaction, uh, let's say 20 20 17, um, we were, I mean, we, we had a hundred store business. Um, two brands and we were like, okay. It, it was at that stage we called it a a, a David Goliath type, uh, acquisition, you know, buying something bigger than yourself. Um, and, uh, you know, I, I remember somebody saying to me, oh geez, that all, that's like a once in a lifetime. Little did they know in 2020 we'd do it again, but, uh. Why make life easy? Um, but, but, but time we were sitting saying, okay, well, uh, our objective was always to be bigger. So there was always this little dream of, hey, like we are a small business. We wanna stay small, but be big. You know, and, and, and kind of get all the, let's call it the safety and security of a bigger balance sheet, you know, in time and a bigger business. And it really does, it does provide, uh, a lot of defense in tough market environments and tough trade environments and so on. Uh, you know, small businesses are always, always more exposed. It's, it's the nature of the best, uh, capitalism. Um, so, so, so ultimately we were sitting and saying, okay, well. If we're gonna be growing aggressively, we need to have a backend that's scalable. Um, so, so we said, so we sat down and we, okay, there's three things that we needed in a retail backend. So we call it, it's kind of like if you follow Baps, it's called the Triangle. So it's your supply chain, it's finance and it, and, and that backend, there's all the stuff the customer doesn't see. That's the piece that we said. There's three words that wanted to define everything we want. We had to be robust. Um, we use the example of you need to be able to throw it down the stairs and the point of sale still works. You know, you, you, it's, it's, it's that kind of thing. Um, you know, we've got stores in remote locations where, uh, you know, we have to have, um, the computers dusted, uh, every six months because the volume of dirt and dust that floats around the air, you know, so, so it has to be incredibly robust. Um, it needed to be phenomenally simple. Um, not just because I'm reflecting on who's gonna be using the equipment, the systems, and the supply chain, but, but really if, if it's, if it's simple, it's replicatable, it's easily understood, and the guys on the ground can take ownership. Um, and that's, that's really what you actually want in life. You know, you just, if the guys doing the job can take ownership, it's a win. Takes pressure off. Um, and it had to be super cost effective. Um, so in that way, scalable as well. Um, so, so we went onto an IT platform that it's incredibly easy, incredibly cheap to add new stores. Um, and then we went and we built a distribution center, um, uh, before it got burnt down. Um, but, and then we built it again. But, but you know, we, love building dcs. Uh, we got really good at it. So, so we, you know, we built one that we don't have to worry in the next five to 10 years. It can deal with the volume and it's like a set. So the bigger I get. I can pull some cash aside. I can go and buy some more racking. I can go buy a new extender belt. Um, so you, it's, it's, you don't even have to spend all the money up front. You can, you can actually grow slowly with yourself that it actually becomes a self-funding exercise. Um. And, and then we looked at our finance team and said, okay guys, you're going from doing, uh, 10,000 transactions a month to doing 30,000 transactions a month to doing 300,000 transactions a month. So you start, the volume is just a killer, you know? Um, so how are you gonna do your reconciliations? You know, how are you gonna reconcile cash? How are you gonna track all the, the merchant acquiring transactions and map it back and. The finance systems and the payroll. You know, we, we went from a thousand staff and we now sit on 9,000 staff. You know, that's a different, different payroll, you know, so it's, it's build going to platforms that aren't necessarily the biggest and the best. But are scalable and affordable manner. That was, that was our modus operandi. Um, so we don't have the, the, all the famous, you know, the, um, you know, we can talk about sap, right? Everyone has done a integration. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, no. I mean, shame, uh, I've got friends there, uh, at, at spa, so like, I don't wanna rub it in too much, but, you know, anything that begins with an s you gotta be careful, know? Um, you know, and, and I've, and I've Oracle, you know, I've, I've been down the Oracle road. Uh, they, I mean, they're phenomenally powerful systems. They're amazing. But the resources you need to be able to do it is for a different sized business. You know, um, and and we weren't that. Um, so it's a mid-tier, robust, scalable, cheap. You know, that's the, the guys that work tease me. I've got a brand, it's called CLM, cheap Like me, you know, just like how do you make, how do you make those pennies really work for you anyway. Yeah. And, and you know, for me, if I use an analogy, it's almost like Retailability is, it reminds me of Toyota, where you've, you, you've created this chassis and um, you can have a Toyota Hilux on top or you can actually have a Toyota fortune depending on, you know, the type of, um, you know, kind of. Distance that you wanna travel or kind of experience or journey that you wanna, you know, go on. So for me, I definitely think Edgars, you know, versus Legit and so on, like it's fundamentally on the same chassis, but, but designed it in a particular way where it's focused now, or at least, you know, moving in that direction. to differentiate on the front yeah, a hundred percent agree with that then. And I mean, let's then talk practically around the people side now, because, at a macro level, we, we hear a lot about, these types of strategies that that, especially retailers, you know are going through and trying to execute. But practically speaking, now you're employing, you know, or, or I think you saved from the Edgar side directly and indirectly, I think it was around 8,000 jobs, um, as a consequence of your acquisition. And for you, how, how do you make sure that you gain buy-in from the, the, the cashier to the packer to, how do you make sure that. You know, you can actually gain buy-in from the team. What practically are you doing, uh, with, you know, your broader teams, um, and tools or systems that you're implementing to gain that buy-in? And I know it takes time, but what, what did that kind of look like when you did that turnaround? I mean, it's probably the same that you did with Legit and Edgars. Yeah. I mean, look, uh, key Keedo is a benefit of, it was, uh, it was a good business that needed a new home. Um, so that was, that was quite a bit easier. I mean, the Edgars piece for WA was a lot tougher. I mean, the guys had gone through a period of insecurity in their jobs. Um, and I don't I don't care how mentally robust anybody thinks they are. If your job's in the line, you, you wobble, you know, and you bring it to work and you take it home and you've got family members saying, gee, what are you gonna do? Um, so, so, and, and then you got, you got lunch breaks in stores where all you can talk about is why are the shelves empty? How do we sell anything? We're never gonna make targets. so so those are the kind of, that's the environment that you come, you know, you come into when you take a business outta business rescue. You know, that's what I said right in the beginning is don't ever discount our, you. If, if you, if any of your listeners or any, everybody who listens to this wants to go into a business rescue transaction, just prepare yourself mentally for the, the, the, the people side of the business, um, that you've gotta dig into. So, so what what we really wanted to do is we wanted to very quickly make it obvious to every single staff member that there was a plan, and not just that there was a plan, but that they could start to see the fruits of that plan. So, uh, you know, I can tell you words, uh, of this is what I'm gonna do and that's what I'm gonna do. And I mean, we live in a country where that's quite prevalent. Um, but then you don't implement it. Um, and then you start to not trust the words. Um, and, and that's, that's, uh, that goes back to the values of the business. So we, we, we really lured the principle of honesty. So don't say anything you're not gonna do. You, you don't need to pander to anybody. So we said to the guys, we know your schools are empty. And they said, good, because they are so he knows something we see tick. Then we said, we are gonna go and buy 900 million rans more stock to fill the stores. And that's what we had to do. So then they say, okay, wow, there's got a be a lot of stock coming. Yes. And then we made sure that when we made those statements, we already had stock lined up and they started seeing boxes coming in. And when you start seeing boxes at the, in the receiving area in stores, they start saying, why are they gonna bring in stock if we are gonna lose our jobs? That doesn't make sense. This is, this is good news. And then they started seeing how cheap this stuff was relative to what it was. And they could start affording some of it. Guys, this is nice product. Look at the price. Lots of it's coming in. Management are doing what they say and, and, uh, you know, I hate that term, but, but that's, you know, the guy. It's, let's start deliver on those promises. And when you do that consistently, month, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and by the time you get to month 18, they start saying to you, you know, what's next? You know, like, uh, have you thought about this? Have you thought about that? Um, and, and I think it's that kind of credibility that we built up very quickly over time. Um. And then the, and then second, the second, uh, bucket that we looked at was, you know, we, we feel that a business that comes outta business rescue is one that generally needs a lot of emphasis on customer experience. Um, and that was, that was the fifth of our big five initiatives, is we had to improve the customer experience, um, because that's how, you know if something's different. Um, and, and we, we created a bit of a, a customer experience initiative. We called it customer first program. Um, and, and behind that we put training and competitions and, and, and engagements and videos. We staff sent us videos of them doing stuff, not us feeding them. They fed us, you know, and, and, and we, that level of engagement, uh, definitely starts to, starts to pay dividend. And then we say to them as part of this customer first is not just rhetoric.'cause most of these schemes, they're like, they come up, you know, no offense to agencies, but agencies will come up with these great ideas and present this thing to you. And there's SMA and John, you know, Bon Jovi will be the lead singer and the, and the introduction and you know, like a wool martian thing from Walmart, you know, and, and you, and, and, and you just look at this and you're saying it doesn't feel authentic, you know? Um, so, so I was adamant it had to be authentically, say African, uh, in terms of, uh, what we wanted to drive, which generally meant it was real and simple. Um, real simple. And then, and then, uh, we said, let's back it up with changing what the staff see day in and day out inside their store. So we said, okay guys, we wanna put the customer first. What are the customer touch points? Fitting rooms? So we spent money fixing all the fitting rooms across all the stores. It's not a lot of money, but it's a mirror. It's a bench. It's a hook. It's proper lighting. It's neat, it's tidy, respectful. Great. That's the one touch point, then the second touch point that all customers go through. Well, the ones that that give us some of that cash is the cash experience. So we said, okay, let's go and upgrade all the cash desks. And we did that. We went through every single store. We made the cash desk neat, tidy, pretty, put some TVs, A little bit of communication, fixed up us, you know, the queues, uh, the queue posts outside, you know, next to it. And we upgraded that piece. So you're saying, okay, those are strategic touch points. You know, you, you spoke about visibility. Uh, when you go into a store and it's dark, uh, you know, you know, doc. Dark halls are good for certain things. You know, teenagers not for shopping, so, so what we needed to be able to do was say, okay guys, you need to be able to show the parts. So we upgraded all the lighting in all the stores. Yes, great initiative, LEDs, save electricity, reduce your carbon footprint. Those are all good things. But customers can also see the product now, you know? And, and, and, and that's a customer experience piece. So we ticked lighting, fitting rooms, cash test, biggest touch points, um, and then the staff saying, geez, look, this looks better. That's nice. They're following through on this. Well, then I'm gonna put more of an effort to greet customers. You know, I'm gonna interact more with customers. I'm gonna help redirect them and show them what else. Um, I'm gonna try and sell some stuff. Uh, and then, you know, fir lastly, the, the tea of, of first is thank the customer. It's a weird thing, you know, people appreciate thank yous. So, so it's, it's, it's that kind of very simple but powerful stuff. Um, you know, and, and it's, it's, it's, it's interesting. As a African culture, we tend not to always be extroverted. So sometimes engaging with, for a staff member to engage with a customer coming in is sometimes a tricky thing. You know, it's whether it be cultural or whether it be, uh, you know, confidence with language. It's, it's tricky. So, so we've gone and we said, okay, in the front of every store, we've employed somebody who meets and ies up the front of the store, but their, their core purpose is to say hello to people. So just say hello to people. Come in and it seems such a weird, simple thing. But, you know, we get, we have customer service scores now where, um, uh, mystery shoppers go in and they give us scores. We, we are hitting over 90% on the friendly greeting score. So at least you start with a friendly hello. Everything after that, we try and do better, at least we starting on the right foot, you know, and that's, that's all we can ask for at this stage. Norman, I think you know what you've shared. Now. I, you know, I have a view that we can, we can never empower someone else, but we can create the environment to enable them to empower themselves. And, you know, I call it the, the three elements. It's, um, space, both physical and psychological. Making sure that, that, you know, is, is, is conducive for them. Um, feedback. In terms of what you're sharing now? I mean, just the fact that they can actually communicate, you know, with management or communicate in such a way where there's a feedback loop. Um, you know, I think that that's massive. And then, of course, what I call tools and systems and, you know, you, you tangibly, you know, linking that to feedback and so on and. And for me, the, the biggest takeaway here then is very much of the fact of make sure that everything is as tangible as quick as possible, even if it is changing the fitting rooms. Um, you know, it doesn't have to be a massive financial exercise, and I think you just demonstrating now that it has to be as practical, as tangible, as possible, as quick as possible is, is is pervasive across any type of business. Doesn't matter, you know, if you're doing, million or you know, 5 billion a year, this, this is something that has to happen across every single business. Yeah, it, it's pride. So, you know, it's hard to be proud in something when you feel ignored. So if, if you don't, if, if you don't, uh, if your dirt's on the side of the roads and litter everywhere. It is like, well, nothing stops somebody else from throwing something else because on the floor, because it's all there. So the investment, whether it be on a factory shop floor, you know, appropriate investment, they're not reckless stuff. You know, you, you don't need to give things that people don't need, but just those glimmers of improvement over time. Uh, it just starts to drive a different level of pride and why, how can I look at a staff member and I say, I expect you to try and sell stuff for me. Um, and why aren't you delivering on your promise and why aren't you hitting your target and why aren't you when they don't ever see evidence of the work that we putting in? Um, so, so I think it's just about making our commitment real and setting that example. If you look at let's call it the layers of communication that you have now in Retailability, you know, I, I, I did my articles at pick and pay and you know right now that they're struggling and, and, and kind of from what I saw there it's, it's clear, uh, with what has happened and what is, um, you know, going to be the focus points going forward, but the layers of communication and Retailability, just describe that to me a little bit because how many layers are between you and then the cashier as an example? Yeah. Look, I mean, I mean pr practically, there are, there are quite a few lows, you know, from, from me to shop floor, but they're less than what they would be in probably 90% of my, and I'm gonna use the word corporate peers. Um, so so we do operate on a very flat structure. Uh, you know, we always tell people it's a sign of our costs, uh, cost control. Uh, and, and, and, and in some ways that's true, but it's also equally reflective of both my excessive compulsive nature to always want to know what's going on in the detail. But, but also, uh, the closer you get your decision makers to the shop floor in a retail environment, the better decisions you make. Around what to buy, where to spend money, um, and, and, and what promotions, what to do next. Um, so so ,how do you stay out the detail, but then be the person that people come to for advice on what to do, but you dunno what's going on. You know, it's your, your decisions are gonna be flawed. Um, and then what happens is, is you start shifting into, uh, theoretical MBA speak as opposed to just bare bones, simple retail speak. Um, and, and, and I think the likes of the pick and pays and, and a couple of other groups out there that need to reflect on, you know, when, when did we stop focusing on retail and selling, buying and selling stuff? And I always say, what do you, I told me, what do you do for a living now? I'll buy and sell stuff. Um, and, and, and, and, and I love it. You know, and, and even now, again, we get it right and we sell it for more than we bought it for. Um, and, and a year. That's a good thing. So, so, so, so it's, it's very much on that per, so we, we have very flat structures, so, uh, I don't really, I don't have a two. I see. Uh, the merchants, their merchant heads, the ops heads, they all report directly through, through to me. Uh, they all got buying and planning teams. The, uh, ops guys each have an area managers that reports into them, and those area managers each have around 10 to 12 stores that they gotta look after. Uh, Edgars, they'll only have about seven stores, and that allows them to, um, really get into the detail and manage their own business units, uh, you know, appropriately. Um, and then it's the store staff, you know, so it's, it's not a massive hierarchical struggle, uh, structure, um, which allows for quick response, better flexibility, more in the detail, uh, and it, and it lives with our entrepreneurial nature. Um, we always find ways to try and make things work. Yeah. Not the other way. I read White, I read Whitey Basson's book and uh, you know, he, I mean I, I'm in awe of what he and his team did. Um, but the, the one thing that Whitey mentions is that there was always a maximum of five, five layers between him and everyone. And, um, it's, it's an interesting, you know, especially at a size where they, the, the, the, the number one MP private employer in our country. It's incredible how there's, you know, only five, you know, around five. Maybe it's different now with Peter, but, um, it definitely looks like it's if you know what I mean, in terms of that decision making. And Norman, before. Before we head off and, um, you know, close this very, very insightful chat with you. I think you, you still have the thank you program at Edgars, and there's over, I think there's about 12 million kind of members or customers as part of that, um, ShopRite Checkers, they've got, um, in the extra savings side of things, they've got, uh, 17 million. So now I think they, the number one. Do you see that as, as, as a huge opportunity? Like just maybe, un unpack that for me a little bit. Yeah. Uh, yeah, look, I mean, I think any, any opportunity to communicate directly with your customer is awesome, you know? Um, and, and I think it's, it's to be valued. so so without a doubt, um, we didn't, we didn't push the thank you program too hard in the first, again, 12 to 18 months. In actual fact, 18 months, we did very little in it because it, it is, it is, uh, when, when, when your, when your fundamentals aren't right. Again, I go back to my point, what am I gonna tell the customer? Sign up for thank you and get loyalty points on stuff you don't wanna buy. Uh, you know, it, it just, the, the message, the messaging is wrong. Um, for me, uh, the ability to communicate directly with customers is, is worth a lot. The points and discounts is the cost of being, of that privilege, of being able to talk directly to customers. Um, and there are a lot of cool ways that, you know, as technology is an advanced and thinking around loyalty and club and value add. Services as that grows, you can really layer this into the Thank you program when we started to do that, uh, with birthday vouchers. You know, what a, what are cool things for customers? Your birthday's always cool, you know? Um, so, so let's talk to them about that. You know, uh, Edgar's Club scheme is still live. Uh, we've got lots of members and a great program, you know, whether it be cheap flights, cheap accommodation, and so on. So, hey, why don't you join club and get a discount?'cause you're a thank you customer. You know, so it's, it's all little ways for us to try and add value to that customer experience. Uh, with the primary goal of tailored communication, reducing the volume of spam and having one-on-one engagement with customer. So, so it's key. Hardest part of that data management. Without any shadow of doubt, uh, you know, when we onboarded the 12 million Little did we know that some customers' names were A-A-A-A-A. You know, um, and I don't know if they, oh, I don't wanna give you my name, um, or what it was, but, but I mean, we, we, and then like, uh, the number of cell phone numbers that were only five digits long. So, so the data integrity is, is, is a massive work stream, you know, and it's taken us nine months to cleanse all our data. Um, but once you've got it and you get your input accurate and clean, you, you, there's a lot of value.